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Mazda Engine General \  timing issues

timing issues

Mazda Engine General Mazda Engine Mazda Tech
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bluebomber   +1y
OK, so it's about three month past and I left my truck sitting, and before then I had a timing problem. I did the old school method and timed it that way. However I don't think that I did it right because when I did it my gun said that it was 50 degrees bftdc. But I just ran with it because it ran really good. But after messing with it like doing donuts and stuff I blow my front main seal. So I parked the truck and three months later I can't even get the started with out holding down the gas and keep the key turned. (meaning to me that it's still a timing issue) So what do you think it might be? I going to fix the seal tomorrow but the timing is still buggen me. I going to dive it from NY to Seattle the end of Sept so I need it to be running tip top shape. So any help would be greatly appreciated.
mazdatweaker   +1y


I don't even know where to start with this. . .

"old school method"

never heard of that. . .

I am as old school as you will ever find.

"50 degrees"

The truck would not start or run. PERIOD.

The starter would whine at you. . .WaHA. . .waHAuh. . .and the engine would be kicking back.

You are mis-interpreting your data.

If the truck started and ran three months ago with whatever timing you had. . . it should start now.

Unless there are other problems.

FUEL

COMPRESSION.

Old school BASICS.
bluebomber   +1y
MazdaTweaker

What I mean by the "old school method" is making sure that you get the #1 piston on tdc on the compression stroke and make the rotor on the dizzy to point to spark blug 1, easy right. Then start the truck and you advance it till it "pings" the turn it back or use your timing gun at that point. So in my book that is the "old school BASICS". But hey..

Yes.. I'm well informed that my truck wouldn't start if it was 50 degrees btdc. Hence me thinking to myself that my timing gun has issue.

So mister "old school" tell me something that I don't know already.

***Edit*** Just need some help.... so can you help?

So today I replaced my front main seal and I found out the my timing gear was loose and the back side of the gear was grooved out by my seal. So the rubber was gone. Also the groove in the middle where the key way goes was flat on one side, the key way was also a goner. I have no idea how this happened except that is was loose.

So I'm hoping that sense the gear was loose, it could cause my timing to be off. Also the seal being so bad and loose that it would create a vacuum leak or pressure problem from the bottom end. Not real sure but I guess I'll find out.

Any thoughts?
farfegnugen   +1y


He's not a dick. he has a lot of information under his belt and has helped alot of people... "shurgs"
bluebomber   +1y



Farfegnugen

I appreciate you sticking up for MazdaTweaker and I bet he has a lot of knowledge, however all I need is some help or someone to bounce my thoughts off of. To me a person coming into to a form and throwing his weight around saying he's Mr Old School and making puns about what I said, his just being a dick. He could of come into the form and asked questions to try to help me by asking questions to figure out more info to help but he didn't. "Sorry...shakes head"

So I invite MazdaTweaker to help and you too. : )

To tell you a little about my truck,

newly rebuilt motor about 8000 mile on it
bored 20 thousands over
total seal rings
272 cam
swapped out my hydraulic tappets for mechanical
Weber Carb 32/36
MSD
pacesetter header
manual tranny conversion
1 piece aluminum drive shaft conversion
front and rear swaybar
polyurethane bushings in the front


I did push my truck real hard towing about two tons or maybe a little less from Seattle to NY on the new motor. But it did real great. I was so happy to see that it made it without any problems.
midnight13   +1y
I had some serious problems with the Weber on mine (38 Outlaw) after letting it sit for a couple years in storage. It doesn't take long for gas to gum a carb it may be worth pulling out the idle jets from the sides cleaning them out and giving the carb a good blasting with some cleaner and compressed air down the mains. I know it sounds odd but with the new ethanol gas i actually ended up rejetting my idle jets also(went up two sizes). I don't think its a timing issue at all because if it ran before it should now unless you have changed it somehow since. BTW where did you get the mechanical tappets? I am getting tired of changing my hydraulic ones every 3 or 4 years.
mazdatweaker   +1y


Thank you for clarifying / defining what to you is "old school."

Sometimes it takes some detective work, i.e. being a "dick" to get to the root of the problems.

Starting from anbiguity brings confusion into the mix.

Your extra explanation and information now provides the data necessary to maybe sort out some of these issues you are having with your truck.

1. The crank pulley bolt was loose. It is supposed to be torqued to 160-180 ft./lbs. Because it was loose, it allowed the lower gear to move around, which over time would have retarded both cam and distributor timing.

"What I mean by the "old school method" is making sure that you get the #1 piston on tdc on the compression stroke and make the rotor on the dizzy to point to spark blug 1, easy right."

If you did things that way, you would have by default retarded the timing six degrees, as correct static firing time is 6 degrees btdc.

And if your timing was already incorrect due to a wallowed out keyway, there is no telling what your gun actually was showing you, as the timing marks would not be correctly oriented due to the skew.

Incidentally, because cam timing was probably late, it is likely the engine was running lean, due to a lack of a good intake charge, leading to some of the detonation you defined as pinging.

2. The oil pump runs behind the seal. The seal keeps oil in the engine. No vacuum /pressure issues. But if it isn't any good, the oil will get pumped out.

3. If you can post a picture of the crank where it is damaged, I may have an idea or two to offer.
dirtracer14   +1y
I think the lower crank pully damage had somthing to do with it. Just today i looked at my sons truck that has new motor,header,weber,msd yada yada... When we first started the truck it sounded great but when i drove it it seemed down on power so i played with the timing alittle no help. He was 16 so i figured well it will keep him out of trouble. Well i had him pull the cover today just to make sure i put the belt on right... well just to let you know it was 180 deg out. Mind you he has been driving the truck for 3000 miles that way. Just somthing to look at is make sure that the timing belt is right first off. With the lower pully lined up the cam should have the dowl straight up.

BTW i have had 1 seal blow out and another leak real bad and a buddy has one leaking in his right now. All were new oil pumps that come with seal in them. The one that popped out was in winter and my son reved the truck when it was like 20 deg out and it popped so i used silicon on it the last time and its been awsome!!
bluebomber   +1y
Midnight 13

I got my mechanical tappets from Delta Cams in Seattle. They will ship it if you are out of the area, however you need to take off your old rocker arms or "tappet arms" and send them back to Delta Cams in order for you to get the mechanical ones.

MazdaTweaker

Yes you are correct, timing it that way would make the timing retard 6 degrees, from there you just need to advance it 6 degrees to get it 6 degrees bftdc.

Then a wallowed out keyway would mess up the info that the gun is receiving, however I don't think that it would read 50 degrees bftdc. I have read that a msd box can screw up the signal to the gun because of the multi spark discharge. So this is where I'm stuck, why is it reading at 50 degrees bftdc?

Also the bolt holding onto the harmonic balancer was loose, which that's what I was thinking because of the keyway, however that doesn't explain the score mark or groove at the back of the timing gear sprocket. Because the seal sits flush to the block. So how did the seal "pop out" from the block and create a groove?

More info...
mazdatweaker   +1y
Well, I had a fully written answer for this, and I went to post it and WHAM:

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